tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post2375928647111497397..comments2024-02-09T16:13:32.416-08:00Comments on Classical Carousel: Beowulf Read-Along - Starting Week OneCleohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-13312723292179657532015-05-27T12:18:19.279-07:002015-05-27T12:18:19.279-07:00Your explanation makes sense. I didn't give mu...Your explanation makes sense. I didn't give much thought to the absence of New Testament content. And I'll be sure to check out all of your posts as I progress with the poem. :)<br /><br />I'm not sure if it is new (as I picked it up at the used book store), but it is part of the books-that-inspired-Tolkien series and has a very bright & colourful cover. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-82009415402973958132015-05-26T17:27:10.825-07:002015-05-26T17:27:10.825-07:00No problem at all, Maria! The origins of this poe...No problem at all, Maria! The origins of this poem are so convoluted and the controversy so broad that it's really difficult to get everything straight. I'm often having to go back and check facts/opinions.<br /><br /><i>"...[t]he author and the audience of Beowulf knew themselves to be in a new and a better dispensation."</i> I really like how he mentions the audience ----- you can (more or less) tell how the poet feels about the cultural situation, but it's important to muse over how his audience would have felt as well.<br /><br />Personally, I kind of doubt that the Christian content was added later. I know at times it seems thrown in at the beginning of the poem but mid-way it melds well and at the end there is almost a resurgence of pagan thought, although this is perhaps used in contrast to emphasis particular points. I put have some comments on this topic in week 2 but the general gist is: 1. if it was altered later, you would think it would be for a purpose; 2. if a Christian altered it, it would most likely be to promote their faith; 3. it would be very bizarre that a Christian would promote his faith using only Old Testament references and leaving out any mention of Christ, salvation or an afterlife, important cornerstones of the Christian faith. So based on that last point, a later alteration with a purpose, doesn't ring true to me. However, I think it could have been written originally either by a Christian or non-Christian poet who was truly trying to show the effect of Christianity on a pagan culture, giving us one small snapshot of that slow metamorphosis. I'm really hoping that someone will find something in an old library or house that will give us more information one day, but for now we can only surmise.<br /><br />Is your cover the new Penguin one? My Goodreads group posted it along with some other new covers they've done. Very cool!<br /><br />And thanks for the kind words about my blog! :-)Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-50088793047860290002015-05-26T15:23:52.390-07:002015-05-26T15:23:52.390-07:00No, no. I'm afraid the mistake is on my part! ...No, no. I'm afraid the mistake is on my part! Ugh do I feel ignorant :( The edition acknowledges that the circumstances of the poem's composition and its authorship are unknown. However, it does mention that Christian monks worked on the text (as you mentioned) and then drops this line when discussing the pagan sacrifice bit: "[t]he author and the audience of Beowulf knew themselves to be in a new and a better dispensation." Everything got jumbled in my head. <br /><br />Although you are right, and Oxford Classics offer much better academic resources. But this copy was so beautiful I couldn't resist!<br /><br />So thank you for the correction! I wondered whether the Christian content was added later because in parts it certainly seems so. <br /><br />And thank you! When I found your blog I knew I had to subscribe. :) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-87783990608831197692015-05-26T14:42:32.825-07:002015-05-26T14:42:32.825-07:00Hey Maria! Your Penguin edition really said that ...Hey Maria! Your Penguin edition really said that it was <i>written</i> by a Christian cleric??!!! I used to love my Penguin classics but I've been tending to gravitate towards Oxford Classics and now I'm beginning to realize why. The Beowulf poet is unknown, so their information is incorrect. It was transcribed by monks (actually two different ones) but with whom the poem originated remains a mystery. One of the questions is whether it was altered at a later date by the monks, so it almost seems that some scholars think that it wasn't written by a Christian but altered to include the Christian content later on. It all gets really convoluted, as you can imagine.<br /><br />A very good observation about the dichotomy within the poet's tale. Sometimes it's obvious that he's promoting a faith in God, and at others he appears to be supporting the existing culture. Quite fascinating. <br /><br />It's not immature at all! Most of us love gifts, right? I can imagine the anticipation as each warrior waits to see what he will receive. :-)<br /><br />I love your blog, BTW. I see that we're kindred spirits in our reading choices!Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-82202777866494899512015-05-26T08:57:14.176-07:002015-05-26T08:57:14.176-07:00In answer to your question about the intermingling...In answer to your question about the intermingling of religions in the text (something I also found very interesting) I'd like to add that based on the foreword of my translation (M. Alexander, Penguin edition), as well as personal observations, the discrepancy is partially explained by the fact that although Beowulf tells of a pagan society, it was written by a Christian cleric. For one, I found that in one passage the narrator emerges in the text to criticize the pagan rituals of the Danes, claiming that they did not know the true God (lines 170-190). Also in the same passage, the translator suggests, the Danes revert to paganism in a situation of danger, worry, fear, etc. <br />As for what reminded me of Tolkien — as immature as this sounds — every time the text mentions giving rings and ring-givers, a childish smile pops up on my face. :D Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-31643214112543157602015-05-09T20:17:35.742-07:002015-05-09T20:17:35.742-07:00Thanks! I put the same comment on your blog, but ...Thanks! I put the same comment on your blog, but please feel free to share and deep insights you get from reading Tolkien's notes. I'm sure we'd love to hear them.Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-23414515686868818052015-05-08T14:48:33.300-07:002015-05-08T14:48:33.300-07:00Here's my post, a couple days late and fifty c...Here's my post, a couple days late and fifty cents short: http://howlingfrog.blogspot.com/2015/05/beowulf-readalong-week-i.html :)Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14247515387599954817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-71344833720405279842015-05-06T13:50:00.506-07:002015-05-06T13:50:00.506-07:00I'm so very sorry to hear about your family, C...I'm so very sorry to hear about your family, Cat. Wishing you all the best and hope to see you back soon!Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-28235478651744878382015-05-06T13:33:30.514-07:002015-05-06T13:33:30.514-07:00This is all so interesting! I have downloaded the ...This is all so interesting! I have downloaded the Gummere so I can make some comparisons.<br /><br />Just wanted to let you know I'll be MIA for a few days - a bereavement in my husband's family.Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09391899740930810224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-13686888378374249312015-05-06T09:03:37.989-07:002015-05-06T09:03:37.989-07:00With all these different translations, it's be...With all these different translations, it's becoming apparent that there are rather obvious differences between the translators who chose to include the poetry and the translators who chose to concentrate on content (meaning). The original poem is apparently very much like Gummere's example ...... tons of alliteration per line. It gives us perhaps a feel for the old poem in a way, but I don't think it really conveys the sound or cadence of the original. It would be fun to listen to this one read out loud (by a professional) and then listen to Benjamin Bagby reading the original. The Swanton and Tolkien translations which go for meaning, tend to clarify certain questions that I was left with after reading Heaney. However, with Heaney, while the meaning is perhaps not always crystal-clear, you do get both the meaning and a very beautiful and elevated style of the poetry which sounds just lovely. I think Heaney has made a wonderful compromise between form and content.<br /><br />Thanks for posting this comparison, Dawn!Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-43214144763430047432015-05-06T08:56:01.161-07:002015-05-06T08:56:01.161-07:00Yikes, more confusion! Perhaps it's a blessin...Yikes, more confusion! Perhaps it's a blessing that we aren't able to read Old English!Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-87379252199466537222015-05-05T20:45:02.664-07:002015-05-05T20:45:02.664-07:00The Gummere translation (free Kindle version) is k...The Gummere translation (free Kindle version) is kind of fun. He uses a lot of 2 syllable alliteration. Fun to read, but I would hate to read it aloud. For me it would be a tongue-twister. Here's a small sample:<br /><br />Twelve years’ tide the trouble he bore,<br /> sovran of Scyldings, sorrows in plenty,<br /> boundless cares. There came unhidden <br />tidings true to the tribes of men, <br />in sorrowful songs, how ceaselessly Grendel harassed <br />Hrothgar, what hate he bore him, <br />what murder and massacre, many a year, <br />feud unfading, -- refused consent <br />to deal with any of Daneland’s earls,<br /><br />dawnhttps://dawnwithherroseredfingers.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-77480086848499648622015-05-05T20:25:58.542-07:002015-05-05T20:25:58.542-07:00Yes, that helped a lot. Actually, I had never thou...Yes, that helped a lot. Actually, I had never thought about the "he" who could not approach the throne being Hrothgar. I checked yet one more translation: Gummere which is the free kindle one I had forgotten about:<br />O’er Heorot he lorded, gold-bright hall, in gloomy nights; and ne’er could the prince<br />approach his throne, -- ’twas judgment of God, -- or have joy in his hall.<br /><br />So it sounds like the translators have interpreted 'he' differently. Interesting.<br /><br />The free kindle Gummere translation has NO line numbers at all!!dawnhttps://dawnwithherroseredfingers.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-10428837434179092892015-05-05T10:06:45.193-07:002015-05-05T10:06:45.193-07:00So perhaps Hrothgar is simply being sensible, know...So perhaps Hrothgar is simply being sensible, knowing that no one can overcome this monster.<br /><br />As to why Grendel cannot come near the precious throne, I don't have a definitive answer. Not only is Grendel cursed by God, Grendel hates God, so it doesn't surprise me that he cannot go near it. As to why it has special protection, to me, that is less clear. Has God not only protected the throne, but protected Hrothgar too to keep him safe? <br /><br />I do see a parallel with the above issue/question and another part of the poem, line 163:<br /><br />Heaney: " ..... nobody knows where these reavers from hell roam on their errands ..."<br /><br />Swanton: ".... Men do not know where those who share hell's secrets will direct their paths ...."<br /><br />Tolkien: " ..... men know not whither socerer's of hell in their wanderings roam ...." (his lines 129-130)<br /><br />Just as Grendel cannot touch or approach the throne (or perhaps Hrothgar) because his (Grendel's) connection with God is severed, so the Spear-Danes cannot anticipate the actions of Grendel because they do not understand the workings of supreme evil. I like this parallel.<br /><br />I hope that answers some of your questions, or at least makes certain issues clearer, Dawn. Please keep asking these questions; they make me think more and I'm getting even more out of the poem my sixth(?) time around! :-)Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-41772809290264725652015-05-05T10:06:29.724-07:002015-05-05T10:06:29.724-07:00I looked up these parts in my other two versions a...I looked up these parts in my other two versions and here's what I found:<br /><br />Michael Swanton tends to confuse the issue, saying that the "he" in "He could not approach the precious throne" is not clear whether it is Grendel or Hrothgar. However, it looks like the overwhelming concensus is that "he" refers to Grendel. Here is Swanton's translation:<br /><br />"On dark nights he dwelt in the treasure-decked hall, Heorot. Because of Providence he could not approach the precious throne, the source of gifts; nor did he feel his love."<br /><br />As for where everyone was, Swanton's translation appears more clear:<br /><br />"Then it was easy (for Grendel) to find the man who was seeking a couch for himself elsewhere, a bed among the outbuildings farther away ....... Whoever escaped the fiend held himself afterwards farther off and more securely. Thus one held sway over all and strove against right until the best of houses stood deserted." (Lines 138-143, I think)<br /><br />Swanton's translation is annoying because it gives line numbers for the Old English, but not the translation, and the translation is in prose and not spaced out to meet the Old English. Grrr! ;-)<br /><br />Tolkien's translation, for me gives more information, but his line numbers are off, which is rather maddening.<br /><br />" .... Thereafter not far to to seek was the man who elsewhere more remote sought him his couch and a bed among the lesser chambers, since now was manifested and declared thus truly to him with token plain the hatred of the hall-keeper; thereafter he who escaped the foe kept him more distant and safe ....<br /><br />Even thus did one lord it and against right make war, alone against them all, until empty stood that best of houses. ....... twelve winters' ....... Grendel strove a while with Hrothgar, wrought hate and malice, evil deeds and enmity .....truce he would not have with any man of the Danish host, nor would withhold his deadly cruelty, nor accept terms of payment; and there no cause had any of the counsellors to look for golden recompense from the slayer's hands; nay, the fierce killer pursued them still ..... men know not whither sorcerers of hell in their wanderings roam ......" (His lines 110-130; line 142-163)<br /><br />I found Tolkien's narrative a little choppy with his word placement somewhat awkward, but he gives excellent information. From him I understood:<br /><br />a) the atttack that carried off the 30 men at once, was the first attack and it was after feasting while the men slept. It appears Hrothgar was there with his men, as he examines Grendel's footprints;<br /><br />b) there is another attack and now a cycle is begun<br /><br />c) Grendel remains hidden and elusive; no one seems to be able to anticipate where he is going to attack next. Also he does not seem to just limit his attacks to Heorot. I don't think Hrothgar is at Heorot at this time ..... I assume he would try to find sanctuary, as does his surviving warriors<br /><br />d) effort has been made to placate him, through payment and diplomacy, etc. He will not accept anything but murder.<br /><br />Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-24522222275007868832015-05-04T20:39:12.099-07:002015-05-04T20:39:12.099-07:00I'm definitely liking the Heaney better than t...I'm definitely liking the Heaney better than the first time I read it, though I still wish I had read the Raffel first. <br /><br />I am really interested in the transition from pagan to Christian traditions in the poem. My comment has to do with that and also with your question about why Hrothgar did not fight Grendel.<br /><br />Perhaps the author did this in order to impress just how frightening Grendel was - when he could carry off 30 men, no one could beat him - until Beowulf. Also - if he only attacked at night, in the dark, maybe it was much harder for them, than fighting someone in the daylight.<br /><br />Another related question I had - all the warriors went and slept somewhere else, but doesnt it sound like Hrothgar is still at Heorot? So what keeps Grendel from killing him? On line 166 <br />(Heaney)<br />" He took over Heorot,<br />haunted the glittering hall after dark,<br />but the throne itself, the treasure-seat<br />he was kept from approaching; he was the Lord's outcast"<br /><br />(Raffel)<br />"Though he lived<br />In Herot, when the night hid him, he never<br />Dared to touch King Hrothgar's glorious<br />Throne, protected by God - God,<br />Whose love Grendel could not know."<br /><br />I am kind of stumped by this. Does this mean he could not kill the king? Or literally could not touch his throne? And why would he, if all he wanted was to kill and eat people? And why would the throne itself be protected by God? dawnhttps://dawnwithherroseredfingers.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-84758032166395236542015-05-03T20:27:31.401-07:002015-05-03T20:27:31.401-07:00Great point about fate, Cat. There is certainly t...Great point about fate, Cat. There is certainly that element to it. I had wondered if he had inherited a relatively peaceful kingdom and wasn't used to having to protect it, but it does mention that he has seen battles, so out goes that theory. Hrothgar has ruled for 50 years before Grendel showed up so there is definitely foreshadowing. He is Hrothgar's bête noire, so to speak. As for Tolkien, Hrothgar reminds me of Theoden and Heorot is Meduseld. <br /><br />I'm so thrilled that you're enjoying it. While Heaney's tone is majestic, it also really drives the story forward. Good stuff!Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-20260436521100226372015-05-03T15:47:38.812-07:002015-05-03T15:47:38.812-07:00I am also loving Heaney - can not resist reading a...I am also loving Heaney - can not resist reading aloud (when nobody is around to hear me). Glorious stuff indeed and I'm wondering why I've resisted reading it for so long. Have to confess I haven't read enough Tolkien to be reminded of his work.<br /><br />I want to read again in case I've missed something but I do think Hrothgar is just too old to fight Grendel and win and knows it and then the long years of grief have led to a sort of passive acceptance, an 'it's all in the hands of the gods' attitude. line 477 ' fate sweeps them away......'<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09391899740930810224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-35914170686433406972015-05-03T10:58:36.322-07:002015-05-03T10:58:36.322-07:00From a wedding to carnage. How nice for you. ;-) ...From a wedding to carnage. How nice for you. ;-) <br /><br />Alexander is making it sound majestic and triumphant? That's good. I must say that I'm impressed with the tone of Heaney's writing. He makes the poem sound wonderfully rich and glorious, a quality that seems to be diminished in my two other translations (Tolkien and Swanton). But it's too earlier to tell just yet. Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-34303363631751342762015-05-03T07:34:33.169-07:002015-05-03T07:34:33.169-07:00Woohoo..Now that the big fat wedding is done and o...Woohoo..Now that the big fat wedding is done and over with, I started today! I found the notes really helpful and I am now plodding past 101 lines...will share more indepth insight once I complete the 700 milestone...loving the paean style of writingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-25851685623361326052015-05-01T19:51:57.330-07:002015-05-01T19:51:57.330-07:00Your recommendation is good enough for me! I'...Your recommendation is good enough for me! I'm ordering it from the library.<br /><br />So much for the Beowulf conversation, huh? ;-)Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-52663953370798708482015-05-01T17:26:41.843-07:002015-05-01T17:26:41.843-07:00Firefly is completely awesome if you are a nerd. ...Firefly is completely awesome if you are a nerd. It's kind of a Western in space. It's got some violence--it's a western after all--but the humor is fantastic.<br /><br />Now I want to watch it again. Good thing we have it on DVD.Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14247515387599954817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-80039892426456056102015-05-01T08:59:54.469-07:002015-05-01T08:59:54.469-07:00That's too bad, R.T. If you remember somethin...That's too bad, R.T. If you remember something from your first read, please feel free to jump right in. I did find an archived MOOCs course for Beowulf where you have to study it in Old English ....... I need to add it to my information page. Thanks for the reminder.Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-81962029509662668422015-05-01T08:58:08.179-07:002015-05-01T08:58:08.179-07:00I saw Whedon's Much Ado About Nothing film, bu...I saw Whedon's Much Ado About Nothing film, but otherwise know nothing about him. Shall I check out Firefly ..... or not ......?Cleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152128642971612433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7495382709151625398.post-59254872851744394112015-05-01T06:18:34.239-07:002015-05-01T06:18:34.239-07:00I wish I had time to join you in the read-along, b...I wish I had time to join you in the read-along, but time and events conspire against me. In any case, I wish you and other readers well in the process. Be thankful that you are not reading _Beowulf_ as I was required to read it in school long ago: in its original English form. We even had read aloud performances. Yikes! Enjoy Heaney's translation. R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.com